Who knows?!?! (09/11/2001) Hax????

[LuckyD6V1L]

It might be intresting. Anyway, I was shocked by diz theory.


http://serendipity.magnet.ch/wtc.html

[LA_MERC_Onji]

omg too much reading hehe

[LuckyD6V1L]

lol

It's worth it
U will see possible dark side of the coin.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

I understand you are foreign to this country, and I value other opinions. In fact, I think they are necessary to properly analyze an issue. BUT I will not stand here idly while this unfounded speculative garbage is posted. That web page is nothing more than one of the tools used by the many enemies of freedom in this world. To even suggest that the 9/11 events were created by the USA amounts to treason. The purpose of this page is to create doubt and confusion and villify good men. This is evident with the author's vitriolic comments solely aimed at G W Bush in the last paragraph. If you seriously believe something like this occurred, I am shocked and saddened by the shallowness of your resolve and character.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

And luckydevil, I don't mean to be rude, but this type of unfounded libel angers me. If there are any points in the document which you believe have validity, please let me know and I will be sure to de-bunk it for you.

[LuckyD6V1L]

Well guys, I'm glad that u don't belive in it.
But i think u don't know for 100%. U only believe in what Media provides you.
Also One book was published(don't remenber the name, but could find it if some1 is intrested) abt the same information. 5 million copies, 3 millions of copies were bought by americans.
In my country, there was the same situation, but with Bombing the building in Moscow, Kasan by chechens. Later, there were some materials and video showing goverment participation in such acts.
We don't know for sure. We belive in what we see.
I posted it because ther is another theory and i thought for some ppl would be intresting.
My country and our ppl beleived that Stalin was the grate leader, but after 1990/89(Perestroika) we discover for ourselfs that Stalin did a lot bad thing and sacrificed/ terminated a lot of great/good ppl.
By posting that link i don't show that i beleive in it.
All IMHO.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

You're right that I don't know 100%, and there are very few that do. However, my information does not lie primarily on media outlets. I like to gather from as many different sources as I can. It's easy to spin this type of conspiracy theory because people are easily willing to consider it. As far as Stalin, the inherent nature of the society imposed by him allowed him to fleece your country. In fact you would be surprised to know that the heavily glorified peace protests staged in the past weeks were financially backed by the World Labor Party, the Stalinist offshot of the former American Communist Party. The same Lenin-Marxist idealists who sided with Stalin in his systematic destruction of opposition (including Trotsky) organized those so called "peace" protests. Kinda makes you see that they were really Anti-American protests. Which is all the article you found truly is.

[LA_MERC_LaTech]

The histories of several great nations harbour such secrets as what you are talking about Lucky. Russia and China both have killed MANY people within their own country just for one reason or another. Even the other day, we heard of such things occuring in Iraq. Hitler went after Jews with a vengence.
However, several differences come to mind with 9-11.
First, Al Qaida operatives WERE on board all of the ships. This group has also taken responsibility for several bombings (US Embasy, USS Cole etc) over the years and they also took responsibility for 9-11. Bin Laden (*turns head and spits on the floor*) had the balls to even admit it in a recorded message.
Secondly, although America has always frowned upon terrorism, it has never openly been against it to the point of sending thousands of troops to deal with "the problem"...untill 9-11. What other reason would the government spend lots of money waging a war than for a good cause?
Finally, I seriously doubt that the United States government would order the senseless murder of thousands of individuals that happen to be US citizens as well. Granted, we go to war all the time...and the government has been known to "off" people form time to time (*cough* JFK *cough*), but thousands of people? Come on...

Lucky, I understand that you were just posting this as a link to someone else's ideas...I really do, and I don't mean this as an attack on you as a person. Rather, this is my rebuttal of the article.

[LA_MERC_Yankee]

"The official story expects us to believe that these alleged nineteen on-board hijackers (acting with military coordination and precision) overpowered the flight attendants (with nothing more than boxcutters and shouted commands), forced their way into the cabin (were all eight official pilots absorbed in contemplation of the clouds?), overpowered the pilots (apparently none of them, some ex-military, could offer any resistance to hijackers armed only with boxcutters), took command of the planes, having acquired the necessary flying skills from training courses and flight manuals, flew them expertly to their targets (good navigators, those Arabs; and flying with the skill of a trained military pilot in the case of the jet which, allegedly, hit the Pentagon), met absolutely no opposition from the U.S. authorities (including the U.S. Air Force) responsible for safeguarding America's airspace (despite the fact that the Pentagon jet was in the air for nearly an hour after the first impact), hit those targets and killed themselves. Sure. And pigs can fly. — Anyone who would believe this story (after thinking about it) obviously has nothing between their ears.

First of all, anyone with some type of knowledge of an aircraft should be able to fly a plane into something. The hard part about flying is landing safely and knowing what to do when there are problems. Anyone monkey with some experience in a cockpit can fly a plane (even a 767) once it has become airborn.

Secondly, prior to these events the crews on board commercial airliners were trained to passively follow the commands of any terrorists. They would never have dreamed that the terrorists would do what they did. Up to this point, terrorists had demands that wanted to be met and more than likely they would release their captives once they were met.

Lastly in this quote from this web site about the US Authorities not intervening. There were thousands of aircraft in the air immediately following the impacts in New York. Not only were the authorities (air traffic control) busy landing all of the other planes safely, but how would it look if the US Air Force shot down a plane that was having radio problems or wandered off course for some mechanical problem. Are these folks suggesting that the F16's should have shot down any and all aircraft that was not communicating with ATC or following a filed flight plane???

The North Tower was hit first, at 8:45 a.m. The plane (or some object, not necessarily a large passenger jet) hit the tower directly, in the center, and a huge explosion immediately followed the impact.

Did they not see the footage of the first plane hitting the building?? I'm no rocket scientist, but working around airplanes all day, I can reasonable confirm that it was an airliner.

But everyone has their opinion about these things and whether or not we should take steps to prevent similar or far worse attacks from happening in the future, so lets listen to them and not do anything. I guess we'll blame the US government for leveling a US city with an atomic bomb or worse yet covering an entire region with a biological weapon. I for one do not care to stand idly by while something like this were to occur.

I can't believe I"ve even wasted time reading this crap.

[LA_MERC_Diesel]

Well said Scott, and Dirge too, but dang those are some big words.
ya sound like Andy with his job discription :p


Everyone has the right to their opinion, just whoever wrote that article was an idiot. Their are lots of instances of corruption in the good ole U.S.A. (look at Louisiana politics) but this would be absurd, unless we were abducted by aliens....ahhh another theory.
:stick

[LA_MERC_Mercy]

Louisiana Politics are corrupted? whereever did you hear that from?

[LA_MERC_LaTech]

ITS A CONSPIRACY!!!

[SnAkEbItE]

Well let me say this, was or was not terriost on those planes? Doesn't matter was matters is that allot of people lost their lives that day. Will we ever fully punish those who are to blaim? No probably not how ever I belive that one day they will answer for their crimes and that day they will plead for God to have mercy on their souls. The quesion is will he? Depending on your faith and what you understand will answer that question.

[Captain]

Well In my opinion on the steel structure melting..... ( i have been a welder for 5 years and have used cutting torches and such on many metals ) The beams that held the WTC where deffinatly reinforxed with stabilizers welded within the beams... These beams where at least 3/4 in thick in the web.(center of beam) and i do agree that is is impossible for jet fuel to melt this beam down to the point that it would even bend... example -- take a piece of sheet metal and poor some diesel and gas on it... and it wont even melt... i do agree with that story on that point.... THERE IS NO WAY THAT JET FUEL MELTED THEM BEAMS>>>> NOWAY!!!!

I know what it takes to melt a beam... It so much heat you cant even stand within 20 feet of it.... just heating them to bend them i could barly stand 5 feet from it with all my leather on...

All in all NOWAY THAT JETFUEL MELTED THEM BEAMS NOWAY...

[LA_MERC_LaTech]

Then again, you are talking about a structure that was supposed to withstand the impact of a 727 (the largest plane of that time) with materials OF THAT TIME. Sure, you build a building of similar size and things might react differently.

Also, have you taken into account the stress and strain that the supports were experiencing due to the fact that the inside walls were gone? You add any sort of strain on a piece of metal and the characteristics of that metal change (Thank you Dr. Hall).You are also talking about a fire that was initially fueled by jet fuel (much more refined that Diesel) but was then fueled by desks, walls, etc etc etc. How do they melt steel? They make a big fire and melt it. Well...how big of a fire is made when a fuel rich plane strikes a non-moving building? Plenty...

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

Captain, you are talking about heat in excess of 3000 degrees F. At this temperature, even hardened steel changes phase and becomes much, much more ductile than previously. All it would take is damage on one portion of the floor to cause a shift in stresses which would cause a slight collapse. Then the steel would catastrophically fail. The building was designed to withstand the impact from the side, but the impact of the weight above the tower above the plane's crash site would cause the beams to fail even if their crystalline structure had not been altered. I will go into specifics later if you want, I don't have much time right now. :) BTW I was a QC welding inspector at an ASME code shop.

[LA_MERC_LaTech]

Wow! I said something right for a change! Dirge and I typed almost the same thing...woot!

[Captain]

Steel on a bridge yes will rust out and go bad... steel in a building will hold its same tesil strength for more than a hundred years... So sayin the steel was weak bc it was older is false...

Also when a building goes up with steel first.... is there any walls there to support it while it is being built??

And on the jet Fuel buring with everything else still would not even produce half the heat needed to melt down steal...

Steel often melts at around 1370 degrees C (2500°F).

what would a fueled fire burn at? well under 2500 degrees
Jet Fuel is a blend of liquid hydrocarbon with final boiling point predominantly up to 275°C. It is a clear, colourless sometimes yellowish liquid of typical odour like kerosene. The fuel contains antioxidant, antistatic and lubricate additives. It may contain as well other additives that are conform to the operating conditions of the aviation machinery and are agreed upon with the responsible authorities of aircraft operation.

Jet fuel isnt anything special... we buy it sometimes to mix with 2-stroke oil for my dirtbike.... b4 they add all the lubricants and such... It's just 100 octane fuel...nothing that specail honestly

[Captain]

what i am saying is that steel did not melt sure it bent when the building colapsed... but it did not get hot enough up to the point of breakdown...

[LA_MERC_Yankee]

One point that is being left out about the strength of the building. When the WTC was designed and constructed a lot of the support for the building was in the actual skin of the building. That's how they were able to offer more office space on the interior of the building. When the planes crashed into the building they comprimized part of the structre that was meant to keep it standing.

[LA_MERC_LaTech]

Thus adding more strain than the origional structure was intended to withold. This strain/stress GREATLY effects the properties (not necessairly the melting point) of those materials. I would even dare say that the molecules of the metal were not what they were origionally. Have you evern seen an impact test done on steel? The same effect that the metal in an impact test experiences would mirror the effect on the metal in a building that had just been struck by a plane.

[LA_MERC_LaTech]

Also, my point wasn't about rust on the metal. I was more directly referring to the metal itself being of "lesser" quality or not as strong of an alloy.

[LA_MERC_LaTech]

Captain, please check out this web site: http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html