another reason Vista is p00

[LA_MERC_Spark]

Basically Micrsoft has pissed on openGL. Why the hell do we have to tolerate this consistent aggressive, monopolistic attitude towards software development? If the lay person only knew and understood ANYTHING about computers this type of shi0t would NOT be tolerated! If you don't understand what this means I'll tell you. Linux and apples OS X use OpenGL. By crippling OpenGL microsoft will force developers to code for directx thus making cross platform software development too costly. In other words stomp out the competition. Make no mistake.. this was a DELIBERATE decision by microsoft. They could have included the industry standard...

http://slashdot.org/articles/05/08/06/177251.shtml


the following was sent to me in an e-mail.. don't have the source article:



Vista Runs CAD (up to) 50x Slower

. . . . .

Bill Gates thinks Vista is "Wow!", and Tom's Hardware thinks so, too.
The popular benchmarking site ran the SPECviewperf 9.03 benchmarks on
several CAD systes, and found that they slow to a crawl under Vista.
Compared with XP, here are the results:

Pro/Engineer = 6.7x slower.

SolidWorks = 9.0x slower.

TeamCenter = 9.1x slower.

UGS NX = 50x slower.

The reason for the dismal performance? Vista's lack of support for the
OpenGL graphics library. Details here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/page7.html .


This is not an unknown problem. Almost exactly one yea ago, I met with
Ron Fritz, co-founder of Tech Soft 3D -- the HOOPS people. He worried
about Microsoft abandoning OpenGL, which 3D CAD software relies on for
speedy real-time graphics of realistically rendered models.

Mr Fritz described the problem to me: In Vista, all graphics are
accelerated using Microsoft's homegrown Direct3D. That includes mundane
items such as menus and windows. To access Direct3D, OpenGL-based
applications have to run through an emulation layer that significantly
slows performance.

This week, I asked him to update the situation. His response: "I can say
that our experience with graphics testing on Vista is that the quality
of the video card drivers can vary greatly. With some, we see
performance that is quite good, but with others it's unacceptably bad
when going through OpenGL. We expect this to settle out rather quickly
as the next generation of graphics cards & drivers are released, but
this variation will continue to be the reality for anyone with pre-Vista
graphics cards."

He feels that Direct3D will win the CAD market in the future for two
reasons: (1) the games market is so much bigger than CAD, device drivers
will eventually be optimized for Vista; and (2) DIrect3D needs to be
fast to run the operating system.

He concludes: "OpenGL will remain important on any pre-Vista Windows
system. I think the world can expect the current hardware and Windows XP
systems to stay in use for awhile. OpenGL will also be the best (only)
approach for hardware acceleration for any platform other than Windows."




OpenGL Graphics Boards

With Vista's abandonment of industry-standard OpenGL, CAD users take a
second hit. Their high-speed, 4-figure OpenGL graphics boards are junk.
For example, ATI's high-end FireGL 3X-256 is an OpenGL-only graphics
board that just last year was priced at $1,500 in its home country of
Canada. It does not work with Vista; see
http://ati.amd.com/technology/windowsvista/Products.html , and then
click on Workstation. Can you say, "Community college donation"?

In related news, some customers say they want launch a law suit against
nVidia for failing to deliver drivers on time, and over its claims of
Vista-compatibility, such as subtlety changing the "Vista Ready" tag to
"Vista Capable." See http://www.nvidiaclassaction.org/

In summary, it's not that OpenGL is impossible for Vista; it's that
Microsoft continues to look for ways to maintain -- and broaden -- its
monopoly at our cost. (Linux and Apple's OS X use OpenGL.)

[LA_MERC_T4rg3T]

Don't upgrade to Vista. Most larger companies won't upgrade for another year or 2 anyway.

[LA_MERC_Diesel]

yep and Tom's also urges gamers to not upgrade, it is too much of a resource hog atm , as Onji has said in the past, wait till the first service pack comes out...lol

[LA_MERC_YellowDog]

Well, the people that are going to Publicly test out vista for MS are the poor souls that by that new off the shelf computer from best buy, dell, gatway ect... but dont have a clue what they are getting... all their told is its the latest and greatest... So when they get error after error, or incompatiblity issues... and that stupid message " Do you want to send this to Micosoft " they click yes,,, and off gose the feed back that MS needs to fix the POS... OS!!!

IMO. :)

[LA_MERC_MadMAX]

HMMMM...maybe I won't be so impatient waiting for my CD...
Dirge - you had any problems w/ gaming?

No Open GL = no CS 1.6 :(

I think when I get my DVD, I'll tuck it away somewhere nice and safe, and when they get decent, stable drivers, and maybe a Service Pack or 2, I'll load it...

A lot of people had a "phobia" of XP when it first came out - and I thalked a lot of the "Vista Phobia" to the same kind of things, but this seems pretty warranted from what I've read so far.

[LA_MERC_MadMAX]

...the poor souls that by that new off the shelf computer from best buy...

I CAN say this Parker - our guys back in PC have been really grilling customers on what kind of software and/or hardware people are going to be using with the new Vista machines, even at the risk of losing sales. Customer loyalty is very important at BBY - I don't know how other stores are doing, but we are being VERY up-front and honest with our customers...

We DO still have the ability to order in machines w/ XP at least at this point. Still plenty in the Warehouse, and some stores in our district have some they'll gladly transfer in even though they aren't on Planogram. We've also had several customers purchase XP, so we can load it up for them until they are ready to use the restore CD's that came with the new PC's to upgrade to Vista.

[Rollout]

I TOTALLY agree spark ( I can't believe I just said that out loud!!! ). Mozilla is once again on it's monopolizing rampage&(^*&$&^$#&^$(^&)&_*(+*)_-!!!!!.

Like EVERYONE else stated, don't buy their stinking products until you are absolutely forced to.

[Chi_Townz]

Don't upgrade to Vista. Most larger companies won't upgrade for another year or 2 anyway.

I know we wont be.

[LA_MERC_Captain_Obvious]

CS 1.6 will work fine on it. same with all HL / HL2 variant games. BF2 works fine on it if you set the game exe to run as an admin.

test / review of 25 games on vista (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2090572,00.asp)
that's just 1 review I came across that has both Steam games and BF2. there are quite a few other reviews saying the same thing as this one. I will probably upgrade to vista next time I format (probably in the next 3-4 months)

[LA_MERC_YellowDog]

I CAN say this Parker - our guys back in PC have been really grilling customers on what kind of software and/or hardware people are going to be using with the new Vista machines, even at the risk of losing sales.

Well, I just got a little P.O'ed at another vendor who was going to set up a new computer for a girlfriend of mine. They were all about Visa... yea, its great.... She didnt know.. I told her for less headache, she would be better to run XP Pro ATM.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

I have no problem with Ms doing what they're doing. They're in it to make MONEY, remember. They're not here to make the world a better place.

I'm running Vista, I think it's cool. And I have no problems running anything in it. You can actually set Vista to run programs as in a specific version of Windows.

As far as a resource hog, I haven't noticed too much. I had a latency setting for my memory incorrect in my BIOS that was causing some slowage and memeory hard errors, but I have fixed that and Vista is purring along.

If I was Microsoft and had a chance to exploit a competitive advantage, I would have used it before now! Sustainable Competitive Advantage is the ONLY way to maintain long-term success!

[LA_MERC_Spark]

I have no problem with Ms doing what they're doing. They're in it to make MONEY, remember. They're not here to make the world a better place.

I'm running Vista, I think it's cool. And I have no problems running anything in it. You can actually set Vista to run programs as in a specific version of Windows.

As far as a resource hog, I haven't noticed too much. I had a latency setting for my memory incorrect in my BIOS that was causing some slowage and memeory hard errors, but I have fixed that and Vista is purring along.

If I was Microsoft and had a chance to exploit a competitive advantage, I would have used it before now! Sustainable Competitive Advantage is the ONLY way to maintain long-term success!

Competitive advantage? LMFAO? Advantage over what competition exactly? There is NO real competition in the pc os market and they want to keep it that way. That is the point. If any other business operated the way Microsoft does it would be fined and shutdown. It has been fined several millon dollars in Europe. It WAS under investigation here until the administration change. Suddenly it just went away. There's a difference between exploiting a competitive edge and and outright eliminating competition. Microsoft has consistently crossed the line by outright stealing others peoples work and/or creating and sustaining a market that is not open to competition. Microsoft is the reason home computing has progressed so slowly. The attempt to burn OpenGL is but one example. The only thing that made a change in the way OpenGL works on vista was the hardware developers and The Khronos Group (the people now responsible for the OpenGL standard). There are drivers to address the issue, but by all accounts they are a fix to a problem that ONLY exists because Microsoft deliberately created it. After all. OpenGL is just a library. The only reason Microsoft can continue to push substandard products on us is because we accept it. For the average whelp that buys a compact there is no hope. For law makers that benefit from large campaign donations there is no incentive. For us, however, there is no excuse. We should know at least a little bit more about the subject and take some kind of stand. Piss on these guys! They have smashed innovation, and we should be doing our level best to not give them our support.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

Okay then, what OS do you use at home? You certainly have options other than Microsoft. All I'm saying is that Microsoft is doing the smart thing from a business point of view. It is a supreme example of SCA (sustainable competitive advantage).

Why such raw emotion on this issue? Has MS done anything personal against anyone here? Or is it jus tthe fight against the big company, unfair, jealousy, etc? Just curious. What exactly is MS doing that is limiting what you do or want to do? Conjecture and allegories about small companies and possibly mythical innovations stomped out don't really have an effect on your everyday life and computer usage does it?

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

BTw This may be a moot point about opengl in Vista anyway:
http://www.neowin.net/index.php?act=view&id=34586

[LA_MERC_MadMAX]

Robby - I'm glad to know someone personally who is using it "real world" not just benchmarks, etc. I've only had the chance to "run" a beta at home, and play w/ the final a bit at work (and that's mostly just digging around on PC's on display.

How much RAM do you have?
Have you had any Gaming problems? Lower Performance?

I'm still torn - part of me is impatiently waiting on my upgraded DVD to arrive so I can load it and play w/ it, but the other part wants to wait and see...

Just looking for some insight on your expereiences w/ it.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

My lowest component is my processor- AMD XP 3200+ Winchester 2.0 GHz I run 2 GB Corsaid DDR 400 PC3200 (4x 512 MB). I have a XFX 7800 GTX w/256 MB.

I haven't had any problems gaming as of yet. I also have't had hardly any compatibility issues. I really like the interface and some of the bells and whistles. The error resolution help system is great too. Also, the updated driver function is light years improved. It actually will FIND the drivers for you and check the versions. lol

And as I said, you can specify how a program runs, i.e. as in XP w/SP1, SP2, etc.

[LA_MERC_Bacowrath]

Its the price of free enterprise. Freedom is great, but the little guy usually gets screwed in the process.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

One thing that is cool is there system number. Or something like that. What I mean is it computes a number which reflects the weakest kink in your performance chain. Then it rates software with a number. If your system number is the same or higher than the software number, they guarantee it will work. That makes things a lot simpler for me and the general public.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

Its the price of free enterprise. Freedom is great, but the little guy usually gets screwed in the process.


True dat, hence the birth of the Pareto Prinicple, also known as the 80-20 rule.

[LA_MERC_MadMAX]

Thanks Robby - you're my widdle guinea pig...lmao.

Your system is actually pretty similar to mine - except I have a x2 3800+ (Still 2.0GHz, just 2 of 'em and socket AM2 w/ ddr2 instead of ddr).

From what I've seen at work my fav. new function is the new startmenu/search function/run box.

The slowest machine I've seen running vista (it was vista basic btw) was a Celeron 3.2 w/ 512, and just probing around the desktop it actually felt pretty snappy...

I may give it a spin...it's not like I can't go back to XP if I don't like it/run into problems...

BTW which version did you buy? I got Home Premium free w/ my PC because it came loaded w/ XP Media Center Edition...

[LA_MERC_Spark]

Okay then, what OS do you use at home? You certainly have options other than Microsoft. All I'm saying is that Microsoft is doing the smart thing from a business point of view. It is a supreme example of SCA (sustainable competitive advantage).

I have three windows rigs and a Ubuntu rig. The only reason I use windows is because I have to if I want to play most games. I have little choice. The average American has ZERO choice. When is the last time you saw or have herd of a customer walk into a store and be asked which OS they want on their computer? Not gonna happen. Hell linux is free and secure. With some of the latest releases even a newb can install it, but you won't see it happening. Right now the only REAL choice a consumer has is to get a MAC.



Why such raw emotion on this issue? Has MS done anything personal against anyone here? Or is it jus tthe fight against the big company, unfair, jealousy, etc? Just curious. What exactly is MS doing that is limiting what you do or want to do? Conjecture and allegories about small companies and possibly mythical innovations stomped out don't really have an effect on your everyday life and computer usage does it?


Sure it impacts you. You are forced to pay $400 unless you want to steal a copy of their software. Now when you buy that software at $400 you are only officially licensed to use it on one computer. In fact now with Vista there EULA states the if you change too much hardware in that one computer you will have to buy another license at $400. What are they limiting? Competition in the market place. How does it affect you and me? Crappy, buggy, easily hackable software that doesn't perform as cleanly as it could if there were ANY pressure to produce a quality product. How does it affect my everyday life? I have to constantly wipe malware/spyware/viruses from peoples computers. Mind you NONE of these people have administrative privileges. Which begs to question how the hell can they install software? Well put simply.. poor programming. When trouble shooting these problems, I have to go it alone because the software vendor, Microsoft, charges OUTRAGEOUS support fees and really can't offer any "support" at all. In most cases they actually tell you the only option is reformatting because there's no way to clean up the system. If you can manage to find any sort of real error message there may be a chance that you'll find some information from Microsoft, but for the most part you have to rely on other users that have spent time trying to come up with a way to fix their crap.

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

I went with Home Premium and I ordered the 64 bit version DVD for an extra $10. I haven't gotten it in the mail yet.

James, Vista starts at $99. The version most of us will be susing is only $120 on newegg. As for your work, you know why they have problems, they hit the pr0n too much. You want security? Go the firefox/Apple/Linux path- not enough users to occupy as many hackers. There will always be hackers, the severity and the frequency of the attacks depends on the "value" of the target. Windows has millions of users, so millions of targets. Microsoft support is optional and most companies use their own people. My argument is strictly from the business perspective. I hold frim that Microsoft is doing what ANY company would do in their position. Beyond six-Sigma, SCA is THE most important factor in ANY major business.

[LA_MERC_Spark]

Have you encountered any of these problems?


1 Driver support -- Key hardware like video and sound is crippled at the moment -- while Nvidia is working furiously to get a stable driver for the 8800 out by the 30th, there's still no SLI support for any of the Nvidia range. And thanks to the removal of hardware accelerated 3D sound in Vista, Creative's popular DirectSound based EAX no longer works at all, muting this feature for just about all gaming titles on the market today. Creative is in the process of coding a layer for its drivers to translate EAX calls to the OpenAL API which is seperate from Vista, but going by past experience with Creative drivers we won't see these any time soon.



2. Applications that don't work -- there's been plenty of coverage about applications that won't work without a vendor update. These include anti-virus, backup and security software such as those from Symantec, Sophos and ilk; CD and DVD burning tools like the suite from Nero need updated versions to work; and even basic disk management and partitioning tools such as Paragon's Hard Disk Manager are awaiting an update for Vista to be compatible. How many more will fail as Vista enters mainstream? Even Firefox has issues with Vista.



3. It's a big fat target -- with a new and untested in the global wild architecture, virus and malware authors are going to work overtime exploiting the holes Microsoft missed. In fact it's already happening. Loath though I am to use the word 'security' and 'Windows' in the same sentence, Windows XP has at least been patched to the hilt and can be used with a plethora of reasonably effective security tools that work now, without waiting for an update down the track.



4. UAC -- Oh yes, the Microsoft solution for an operating system where mutli-user was an afterthought. Sure, you can disable it, but the OS then makes it clear then that the onus is on the user for any damaging programs that got to run with permissions, rather than with Windows in the first place. If you do have it on, it is going to annoy the hell out of you. It pops up far too frequently, and even on a fast PC, the UAC screen takes too long to come up and disappear.



5. DRM -- And to a lesser degree TPM -- were made for the RIAAs and MPAAs of this world, and the even tighter integration of copy protection mechanisms and 'Windows Rights Management' into vista are nothing more than a liability to you, the user. This ComputerWorld piece says is succinctly: 'it's hard to sing the praises of technology designed to make life harder for its users.' As for TPM, this short animated video shows just how far the rabbit hole goes. And to think you pay for the privilege of having the use of media you purchased and own dictated by third parties, even on your own system.



6. The draconian license -- somehow, Microsoft has forgotten that it built its business from products that empowered its customers, not hampered them. Of course, we forget that Microsoft's customers aren't you and I, afterall (see point 5). Aside from the backward thinking that is licensing, and not actually owning, your software new terms with Vista include being able to transfer the license only once; half the limit compared to XP for Home Basic and Premium on how many machines can connect to yours for sharing, printing and accessing the Internet; limits on the number of devices that can use Vista's Media Center features; activation and validation governing your ability to upgrade hardware and use Windows itself; and outlawing the use of Home Basic and Premium with virtualisation software, and Ultimate only if DRM enabled content and applications aren't used. But then again, who reads these anyway?

[LA_MERC_Onji]

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[LA_MERC_Spark]

L O L

[LA_MERC_Dirge]

No I haven't. Question, from which build are those bugs? While checking things out, I frequently found the bugs in reference were part of the many beta builds and compilations that have been floating around up until the launch.

[LA_MERC_Spark]

As far as I know these are bugs in the release version sent out for evaluation by mags. Maximum pc being the one that I subscribe to. Those particular quotes were from the Feb 2007 APC magazine, but are along the same line as the newest Maximum pc reviews of Vista

[LA_MERC_Spark]

Link to maximum pc's 10 reason... I also don't see the $99 option being something anyone would want.. scroll down to the bottom to see what you DON'T get without buying the more expensive versions. Bah...it really doesn't matter man. As long as you are happy with the product and don't have a problem with the way they do business then load up all the widows stuff you can. I just don't see me doing it until I get forced to by some DirectX 10 game, and then not until at least the first service pack comes out.


http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2007/01/29/maximum-pcs-reasons-why-you-shouldnt-upgrade-to-vista/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nelsonguirado.com%2Findex.ph p%2Ftechreviews%2F2007%2F01%2F28%2Fmaximum_pc_s_re asons_why_you_shouldn_t_u&frame=true

[LA_MERC_T4rg3T]

I see Sparks point

It's like having one primary auto maker, one telephone provider, one "Insurance provider"

Yeah, there are 2 or 3 other options but nothing that compares to the primary option. Especially if the second and third option wouldn't take the same kind of gas that 90% of the gas stations carried. Maybe the other 2 telephone providers only let you make 5 calls per day or to certain areas of the city.

You'd be forced to purchase the primary product even though you had "other" choices. Now, since that primary automaker only makes 4 different variations of the SAME PRODUCT, you would think that they would produce a great product that meets the needs of everyone it services. Free of issues and an upgrade from its previous versions.

Thats not the case with Microsoft because their major business is done with schools, governments, and prebuilt computer retailers (Dell, HP, IMB, etc..) and not the end user. Does Microsoft care what the end user thinks? Why does it have to? They don't and the only one that suffers is the end user. Just like Dell stopped selling PC's with Windows 2000 a little over a year ago. It will happen with XP. The end user will be forced to purchase a pc with Vista.

Now you have an OS that requires a bigger/better machine to run it but it doesn't offer any advantages over the previous version for the addition hardware/resources it uses.

[LA_MERC_th33_r00k]

Microsoft is not the debil, but it is helping in opening peoples eyes that know better.

Microsoft = CHEAPER, FASTER, EASIER for most.

Cheaper, faster, and easier USUALLY is not the best way to go.

That is what you look for in your pediatrician...right? Your car, your employees, your IT guys, your BOSS, your veterinarian, your games, your life in general.

You have 3 basics in business for a consumer to look at and compare:

1. Service
2. Cost
3. Quality

You usually have to hit 2 to be competitive, unless You OWN the market ie. monopoly.

BTW- Ubuntu is pretty cool.