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LA_MERC_Dirge
March 17th, 2004, 09:00 AM
This is what I referred to in the other thread: How Kerry suggested almost step-by-step the path Bush took to the Iraq War before he was a Presidential candiadte. Now that he is trying to please the left, he is completely flip-flopping on his previous statements. It makes you wonder if you can trust anything he says.

First is a link to an article that analyzes the situation:

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=3290

Here is Kerry's op-ed from the New York Times, dated 9/6/2002

I had to paste it because you can't link directly to it, but here it is in its entirety:

The New York Times: John F. Kerry's Op-Ed on Iraq

September 6, 2002


HEADLINE: We Still Have a Choice on Iraq
BYLINE: By John F. Kerry, a Democrat, is a senator from Massachusetts
DATELINE: Washington,

It may well be that the United States will go to war with Iraq. But if so, it should be because we have to -- not because we want to. For the American people to accept the legitimacy of this conflict and give their consent to it, the Bush administration must first present detailed evidence of the threat of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and then prove that all other avenues of protecting our nation's security interests have been exhausted. Exhaustion of remedies is critical to winning the consent of a civilized people in the decision to go to war. And consent, as we have learned before, is essential to carrying out the mission. President Bush's overdue statement this week that he would consult Congress is a beginning, but the administration's strategy remains adrift.


Regime change in Iraq is a worthy goal. But regime change by itself is not a justification for going to war. Absent a Qaeda connection, overthrowing Saddam Hussein -- the ultimate weapons-inspection enforcement mechanism -- should be the last step, not the first. Those who think that the inspection process is merely a waste of time should be reminded that legitimacy in the conduct of war, among our people and our allies, is not a waste, but an essential foundation of success.

If we are to put American lives at risk in a foreign war, President Bush must be able to say to this nation that we had no choice, that this was the only way we could eliminate a threat we could not afford to tolerate.

In the end there may be no choice. But so far, rather than making the case for the legitimacy of an Iraq war, the administration has complicated its own case and compromised America's credibility by casting about in an unfocused, overly public internal debate in the search for a rationale for war. By beginning its public discourse with talk of invasion and regime change, the administration has diminished its most legitimate justification of war -- that in the post-Sept. 11 world, the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable and that his refusal to allow in inspectors is in blatant violation of the United Nations 1991 cease-fire agreement that left him in power.

The administration's hasty war talk makes it much more difficult to manage our relations with other Arab governments, let alone the Arab street. It has made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the implications of war for themselves rather than keep the focus where it belongs -- on the danger posed by Saddam Hussein and his deadly arsenal. Indeed, the administration seems to have elevated Saddam Hussein in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he would never have achieved on his own.


There is, of course, no question about our capacity to win militarily, and perhaps to win easily. There is also no question that Saddam Hussein continues to pursue weapons of mass destruction, and his success can threaten both our interests in the region and our security at home. But knowing ahead of time that our military intervention will remove him from power, and that we will then inherit all or much of the burden for building a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, is all the more reason to insist on a process that invites support from the region and from our allies. We will need that support for the far tougher mission of ensuring a future democratic government after the war.

The question is not whether we should care if Saddam Hussein remains openly scornful of international standards of behavior that he agreed to live up to. The question is how we secure our rights with respect to that agreement and the legitimacy it establishes for the actions we may have to take. We are at a strange moment in history when an American administration has to be persuaded of the virtue of utilizing the procedures of international law and community -- institutions American presidents from across the ideological spectrum have insisted on as essential to global security.

For the sake of our country, the legitimacy of our cause and our ultimate success in Iraq, the administration must seek advice and approval from Congress, laying out the evidence and making the case. Then, in concert with our allies, it must seek full enforcement of the existing cease-fire agreement from the United Nations Security Council. We should at the same time offer a clear ultimatum to Iraq before the world: Accept rigorous inspections without negotiation or compromise. Some in the administration actually seem to fear that such an ultimatum might frighten Saddam Hussein into cooperating. If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act. But until we have properly laid the groundwork and proved to our fellow citizens and our allies that we really have no other choice, we are not yet at the moment of unilateral decision-making in going to war against Iraq.

LA_MERC_Dirge
March 17th, 2004, 09:03 AM
And realize, I am not being a Kerry-basher, just pointing out the facts that mysteriously do not surface in the mainstream media...

The end lines from the linked article above pretty much sum it up for explaining Kerry:

"His constantly shifting position since then, though enigmatic to some, is easily explained in three words: transparent political opportunism."

I hope you enjoyed. :D

-FA- ManiacalClown
March 17th, 2004, 02:13 PM
So I read that, and apparently Kerry wanted inspections to continue, wanted full UN support, and wanted full public support and support from all of our allies.

How exactly does that coincide with Bush's march to war? I'm just not seeing it.

Kerry seems to be more sitting in the moderate area in this case, at least to me.

LA_MERC_Dirge
March 17th, 2004, 02:20 PM
How about this one:

"If Saddam Hussein is unwilling to bend to the international community's already existing order, then he will have invited enforcement, even if that enforcement is mostly at the hands of the United States, a right we retain even if the Security Council fails to act."

Recall the steps leading up to war, almost step by step the steps taken. Revisit the history... :rolleyes:

LA_MERC_Diesel
March 17th, 2004, 02:24 PM
The leader shall show us the light...when do we strike sir?

-FA- ManiacalClown
March 17th, 2004, 02:26 PM
"But until we have properly laid the groundwork and proved to our fellow citizens and our allies that we really have no other choice, we are not yet at the moment of unilateral decision-making in going to war against Iraq."

Don't forget that part.

LA_MERC_LaTech
March 17th, 2004, 02:48 PM
How long do you want to wait? 10 years? 20? We had, at that point, waited 10 years for things to change with no VISIBLE change noticed. Enough is enough.

LA_MERC_Dirge
March 17th, 2004, 02:49 PM
hehehe I was kinda hoping you would try to bring that up. Take into light that it was an op-ed, and you can see that that ending statement is the end of his conclusion, which he just established the steps for reaching,i.e. he outlined the path he thought necessary, culminating in the use of force. That same path happen to be the same steps that were used by the current administration. And don't forget that the illusion of unilateralism was just that, an illusion. Rather it was the coalition of the willing.

:D

LA_MERC_Diesel
March 17th, 2004, 03:44 PM
ahh the ole boody-trap...
Dirge that was low, like a lion pouncing on a hurt donkey


:saddam3

-FA- ManiacalClown
March 17th, 2004, 04:48 PM
My point is that the current administration laid out a path and then didn't follow it. It doesn't matter if Kerry had the same plan if the originators threw it out the window anyway. :rofl:

LA_MERC_Dirge
March 18th, 2004, 07:47 AM
Well two things. (And if you think this is getting on my nerves... LMAO)

1) If that was your point, then why didn't you say it up front? Unless you are truly an admirer of KErry's speaking style

2) What part of their plan di the current administration not follow.

-FA- ManiacalClown
March 18th, 2004, 11:47 AM
Public opinion was firmly divided close to 50/50 in terms of going to war, which was to be expected due to the partisan lines drawn pre-2000, leading to the incredibly close election of that year (Any time you have one guy win the popular vote and another win the college, it's a rare event and definitely one that will be very important historically). I think ideally there needed to be more time spent on convincing the people of the US on the concept of war.

I think the bigger issue at hand now, however, and something I'd like to see more information on, is not how the two candidates saw the path leading to war, but how both candidates see the path leading to withdrawl from Iraq. I mean, we're in there now, and we absolutely must finish the job we've started, but as things are going now, we're not going to. I don't want to see a Vietnam of my generation anymore than anyone who lived through it the first time wants to see it again.

LA_MERC_LaTech
March 18th, 2004, 12:07 PM
I think ideally there needed to be more time spent on convincing the people of the US on the concept of war.
That's the only problem with idealism...it never follows reality. Time constraints, financial constraints...you name it...there are thousands of ways that reality will always win out over idealism.

LA_MERC_Diesel
March 18th, 2004, 12:07 PM
Most of the documentation I have seen says things are going very nice in Iraq, the schools are better then ever, and a poll came out that they feel safer now, then ever before. Don't let the Democrat agenda sway you from the truth of how much better things are over there. Just because some Americans are not intelligent enough to see it, and things don't just change because you want it to.

A Vietnam of this generation????? poor,poor little clown from Arkansas, so sheltered.

Wasn't that what some liberals were saying before the war as well..lol
We didn't have a weenie democrat get us into this conflict, we had...W

LA_MERC_Diesel
March 18th, 2004, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by LA_MERC_LaTech
That's the only problem with idealism...it never follows reality. Time constraints, financial constraints...you name it...there are thousands of ways that reality will always win out over idealism.


wow well said Tech, that sums that up nicely.
:cool:

LA_MERC_Dirge
March 18th, 2004, 12:41 PM
hmm Clown, do you ever actually answer the question in front of you, or are you training to be another democrat question evader?

-FA- ManiacalClown
March 18th, 2004, 12:59 PM
How many times has someone launched an act of terrorism in Iraq lately? I mean, there was one yesterday. Maybe that's safer than before, but only because of the horror of the previous regime. And that's still a big maybe.

But consider these acts and what they can do to the soldiers over there, particularly when one of these terrorists actually attacks them. They begin to get more and more paranoid of the people over there. I mean, when you have the loyalties in a country divided, how do you tell the people apart? Whether they're supporting our new regime or whether you're supporting the old regime, they're an Iraqi. So how can you know if that guy running towards you or that guy driving the vehicle is on your side or trying to kill you? This is the kind of thing that started happening in Vietnam and led to such incidents as the My Lai Massacre. This is the kind of thing that has led to less-massive but similar incidents in Iraq. Soldiers say that they were fired on so they fought back. But all signs point to otherwise. Were they actually attacked? Or is the paranoia setting in? And maybe it's not even paranoia, but just the natural self-defense mechanism being triggered by such an overly hostile and inhospitable environment.

The parallels are there, and we've got to do something to stop it.

-FA- ManiacalClown
March 18th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by LA_MERC_Dirge
hmm Clown, do you ever actually answer the question in front of you, or are you training to be another democrat question evader?

I just like to keep you on your toes.

LA_MERC_Dirge
March 18th, 2004, 01:08 PM
Clown you bring up valid points, but from where are you basing your information? 99% of all of the reports I hear from returning troops and troops that are still over there are positive in nature. This comes from personal friends, family, and national reports. Also, where do you get the divided loyalty issue? True they have divided ethnic groups, but that is a part of their nation building they have to deal with, not anything with us. The terrorism is coming from outside of Iraq forces and splinter terrorist groups acting alone. Remember the gallup polls showing the Iraqi people are extremely happy and feel safe.

I would ask you a question, but you wouldn't answer it anyway... ;)

LA_MERC_Diesel
March 18th, 2004, 01:11 PM
Clown makes me...:work4

Toby, fix the shootme smilie, it doesn't work. :(

-FA- ManiacalClown
March 18th, 2004, 02:53 PM
These isolated incidents I've referred to I've picked up from watching the news. I mean, like I said, there hasn't been anything as serious as what was seen in Vietnam. But that's why I want to get this taken care of and get our people home. Because the longer they're over there, the worse morale will get. From what I've seen so far, the rotations of troop deployment hasn't been too bad. Friend of mine went off about a year ago, and he's on his way home (for which I'm very glad). I hope that keeps up, at least, because I think that's a very, very good way to keep everything going somewhat smoothly.

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